China |OT| ^_^

nacho

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#4
The social credit thing sounds really bad, but I'm not sure it's anything more than a draconian version of the No-Fly list.

While China's human rights violations are staggering and horrific, if your objective is keeping the people down, they're doing a damn good job. I'm not sure a government could hold a country that large & populous under their heel without such Orwellian measures. I look forward to the day the Chinese people wake up.
 

ThunderDan19

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#5
From my limited experience, from a discussion with a Chinese citizen, capitalism has most definitely infected China. Day to day, the Chinese don't suffer from their evolving culture. In fact, they are doing better than ever before. Capitalism is growning and the communism subsiding, but it's currently somewhere in between. I'm sure the changes are concerning to the hardliners in power, so that's where the (possibly exaggerated - not that the media would ever do such a thing) stories originate from, but I did not get the impression it's nearly that awful.
 

NSA

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#7
Yeah, I imagine it's not terrible for all their billions of people, but the oppressed there likely have it way worse than the oppressed over here.

Also here you get famous for berating the government and over there you just get disappeared.

The social credit thing is really interesting.. depending on how it takes off.

Here is a video from 2015:


I don't know how/when it will be implemented totally.. but this says 2020. With the travel thing getting ramped up, maybe it'll mean they're getting ready? As it stands, the travel ban isn't terrible.. but if you start factoring in other non-travel offenses restricting your movement.. could be pretty bad. So you talk bad about the government, get a low social score, and now you can't take the bus or train? How do you get to work? What if you can't get a job because your score is too low? Etc.

The video above does a good job explaining the problems with a system like this (if it goes active as planned). Getting people to do the dirty work for them is perfect.. in an evil way.. it's like the next evolution of social media..
 

nacho

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#9
The inherent problem (brilliance?) of this is that China's population has already had the concept of ingenuity bred out of them. They are fantastic at *poorly* copying everything made by the western world and Japanese. But they cannot create anything. Obviously the government has a few free-thinkers to help the suppression efforts, but by and large, they are incredibly smart and incredibly unable to think creatively. 2 billion high-IQ people, and they haven't invented anything new since gunpowder a thousand years ago.

In my telecom career (big international firm), we had a partnership with Shanghai Bell. One day, while walking past the giant paper-recycling bin next to the bank of industrial printers that served the engineering floor, I noticed a printout of a circuit board layout that seemed oddly familiar. I picked it out of the trash and noted that the design was full of parts that I had put into our system for my designs, parts that no one else used. Except the board layout was completely foreign to me. Wa-Huh?

I showed it to my boss, who informed me that Shanghai Bell was in the process of adapting one of my designs for their use. Except that they had taken all the parts that I had meticulously laid out for optimal performance (I can't stress how critical layout is to circuit performance), and they had arranged the parts on the board by size... for convenience *facepalm*. It was the equivalent copying the design of a car but putting the wheels on top and the engine in the passenger seat. It was never going to work, and I wasn't going to help debug their abomination.

But the point of my story is that their form of suppressive government rewards those who conform, who don't think freely, who don't have new ideas... and it punishes anyone who dares to aspire above their station or have ideas that might rock the boat. So this Social Credit idea will take off like wildfire in china. They're bred to get in line. They're socially predisposed to lap this kind of crap up. The idea of free-thinking and creativity is antithetical to the way their society runs. Dystopian nightmare 101.

I hate the perpetually offended, always protesting left we have here, but it's better than having a society of lemmings. While little good comes from constant unrest and social tension, a little creative disagreement usually yields better results.
 
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pcsguy88

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#10
The Chinese are getting better at designing stuff as their market matures and more of them return home after being educated and working here. The Chinese nationals I work with are usually far superior in grasping a concept than their Indian counterparts.
 

nacho

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#11
Most of the Indians I worked with in engineering were pretty bright. We only had a couple of chinese guys, and they mostly stuck to writing software and having poor hygiene. The Indians were way friendlier too. But none of that speaks to the populations as wholes, as I doubt I was working with anyone resembling average. If they made it over here to the telecom sector, they were not run-of-the-mill dudes.

Still, I can't help but think that china lags the world in innovation. They're smart, no doubt, but they're trained from birth to not question, to not have original thoughts. They can understand conceptually when it's explained to them, but they can't invent. Compare them to the japanese. Similar IQ as a society, but drastically different creative/inventive output.... even though china dwarfs them in numbers.

It's a lack of free-thinking that will allow this social credit thing to take hold in china in a way that would be openly resisted in other cultures.
 

NSA

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#12
I think it may be something that we'll see change over time. If this social credit thing takes off, and the government doesn't have to do much to keep order and balance, they may allow more creativity to flourish.. as long as it's under the governments watchful eye.

"Come up with a new idea that helps Chinese interests around the world, get 1,000 points!" If they can frame it as PRO GOVERNMENT and PRO PEOPLE (by giving them points) which of them will actually care what it's used for/long term.

I could also see something like this being shadow introduced here. People are already SO EASY to lead via social media and media in general.. this would be the next step up.

We're too splintered right now for it to be introduced whole (david) hogg.. but if you started it small, in sections, and then slowly worked them together.. I'm sure a lot of people would never even realize whats going on.
 

pcsguy88

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#13
Your right nacho, all the Chinese I work with are in software while the Indians are in network design. The gap between the home schooled Indians and the US educated Indians is night and day. I think both countries will continue to grow in the ability to problem solve and innovate as more and more of their citizens return to teach the next generations. I mean, they really are on the first gen of tech workers and that stuff has to take time to soak in and change the way they are taught.
 

G.I.*EDDIE

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#14
We watched the first few episodes of The Orville before calling it quits. They sold it as a funny show, but it just turned into a different kind of Star Trek. No thank you.

Anyway, one of those first episodes had a social credit system planet. If you got low enough, you were executed. It was a pretty interesting episode if you can find it. "Majority Rule" was the title.
 

NSA

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#15
Yeah I saw that one.. crazy to think something like that could actually happen..

Though at the same time.. we all have to prove our worth to society on a daily basis in other ways.. having a job, paying taxes, not being a criminal.. etc. Is it a huge stretch to kind of automate or game-ify that?
 

G.I.*EDDIE

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#16
I mean, with the social credit system you fall into what individuals find acceptable or not. That's extremely subjective. I think it's totally fine for someone to say "retard" but someone else does not. Now we're all not socially interacting and walking on eggshells for fear of offending and getting downvoted. And lets say someone downvotes you. Well can't you then just downvote them back? An endless cycle until both are completely ostracized?

Seems like a means of getting us to enslave ourselves.
 

NSA

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#17
I mean, I think even in 'normal' society, things have a way of falling out of favor.. like 'retarded' meaning stupid or 'gay' meaning lame. I still find myself using them from time to time, but it has decreased since society at large has moved away from those.

I used to say "Gay!" all the time when something was lame.

Is it a bad thing? I dunno. It happens rather organically..

Putting in a system? Would that force it to change or just make the change more visible? If I call someone retarded now, most people will just silently judge me for saying that.. if they could 'downvote' me for saying it.. would I think twice about doing it next time? I dunno.
 

K-Tiger

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#19
That can't be kosher with the new social points system. Speaking of, anyone think it is gonna spike suicide and violent attack rates?