Chinese vehicle a US ripoff The model

[rds13601]

The model that you see here in 1:18th scale in People's Liberation Army camoflauge is really a ripoff of a US military vehicle used by the 75 rangers for covert operations and is painted in black. The US called RSOV version carries a turret like the Marine Super Humvee with roof version with a MK19 grenade launcher or 50 Caliber. It also carries a winch, no rear door and crates on both sides of the front tops with tons of gear, portable anti tank weapons, jerry cans, and grill guard. etc. Source for info on RSOV, Scale Military Modeller. Check Delta Force videos on You tube and you might see it. Here is how China rips off intellectual property and here is the the link http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-18-China-...9?pt=Diecast_Vehicles&hash=item1e53dc1f23link

 

[Wild weasel]

That explains hasbros 2001 desert striker version of the awe striker as well

Here is artwork of the RSOV
http://www.fmc-shop.com/images/HBB82449.jpg



So, what's next that chinas gonna copy?

 

[lancelot]

That explains hasbros 2001 desert striker version of the awe striker as well

Here is artwork of the RSOV
http://www.fmc-shop.com/images/HBB82449.jpg



So, what's next that chinas gonna copy?

our way of life and form of government? LOL fat chance!

 

[Skyhawk]

Love the white walls...

 

[Midget]

I'm confused. Are you saying the toy is a Chinese knockoff of an American manufactured toy or the real Chinese vehicle is a knock of of the RSOV… because the RSOV (from wikipedia) is based on the Land Rover Defender… which is a British auto company (a very good one I might add).

Also from wiki:

"In the 1960s, China's Beijing Automobile Works produced its own "jeep", the BJ212 which was largely a Chinese copy of the Soviet UAZ-469B. Often called the “Beijing Jeepâ€￾, the BJ121 was widely used in both military and civilian service in China, with over 200,000 produced by end of production in 1983. In May 1983, American Motors Corporation (AMC) agreed to allow the updated BJ2020S to use the 85hp engine of the XJ Jeep Cherokee.[2] The latest Chinese light utility will be the BJ2022JC 'Brave Warrior', built by Beijing Benz-DaimlerChrysler Automobile Co. Adapted from existing Mercedes Benz designs, the BJ2022JC will carry 0.7 ton[vague], with a wheelbase of 110 inches, and has an independent suspension system with a 101.5 kW 3.2 L turbo-charged inter-cooling diesel engine.[3]"

The picture of the toy you posted looks a lot like the BJ212, which is a copy of a Russian vehicle, not an American one.

 

[rds13601]

I'm saying it is a knockoff of the RSOV. Why 4 doors, a roll cage for adability for turrets for weapons like machine guns and grenade launchers? The grill looks a tad famililiar like a Humvee only stripped down. You said in the 60's the Russians copied the Jeep. Where do you think the Russians got the idea for their jeep. Who invented the jeep? The Russians steal and copy american technology. Their new fighter is a cross between the F-15 and the Euro fighter. Check out China's stealth fighter it looks like the f-22. Their stealth bomber looks like the the B2. Their stealth covert ship looks just like ours. Go on YOU TUBE and see.here are some links for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5d41v9T0nI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Uupnb3u-w&feature=related The second link looks like the drone we lost in Iran huh? here is the j20 the f22 rip off link for you from CHina. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh0HKS0deFo If China and Russia aren't stealing our military secrets you are living in a dreamworld.

 

[Midget]

You're making a lot of jumps in logic there.

I never said the Russians copied the jeep- they didn't. The UAZ-469B is not a copy of a WWII Jeep- the Russians didn't need to copy it, we were already providing them with thousands of the 4x4s. They started developing their own light utility in 1938, and continued until 1941. The express purpose for building the vehicle was to fulfill the same role as the American Jeep. One would expect that vehicles fulfilling the same roles are going to look similar- the same way a HMMV and a Land Raider Defender share similarities in both appearance and function, despite being designed by two different companies, decades apart.

I'm not saying weapons designs aren't stolen, copied and improved upon- I could cite at least 5 designs weapons designs off the top of my head that are copies of someone else's ideas. What I'm saying is, in the case of the vehicle you referenced, the Chinese vehicle is licensed BY Beijing Benz-DaimlerChrysler Automobile Co. to use existing DaimlerChrysler (when the two companies merged) designs in their military equipment. Guess what? Chrysler owned Jeep while they were merged with Daimler. So it stands to reason the design qualities of the Jeep made its way into the BJ212. Hence the similarities. So the designs aren't stolen- they're completely licensed to a Chinese company to do with them as they please.

At no point was there any technology stolen in this one example. In fact, the BJ212 was was released in 1965- well before the HMMWV. And, again, the RSOV is actually a Land Raider Defender 110. Land Raiders, in one format or another, have been in service since WWII… so if you want to say any of the vehicles I've discussed earlier are a copy of anything- I'd go with that first.

 

[Midget]

If China and Russia aren't stealing our military secrets you are living in a dreamworld.

You're obviously not reading my posts. I never said they aren't. They are, I completely agree.

What I am saying is that in your original post, the vehicle you have pictures is in fact not a stolen design by any means.

I never commented on anything but the utility vehicle.

But I'll also throw this out there- things that are designed to do a similar job are going to share similar features. To say that all the designs you posted youtube links to are stolen tech is hyperbole. The Russians and Chinese… especially the Chinese… have billions to spend on their own R&D. It's naive to say they can't come up with their own designs.

 

[rds13601]

I know about the the jeeps during WW2. However since you know the specifics on the contract and model number on this vehicle I will cede to your point.I also know about the Land Rover Defender and SFOB. The differrence with this Chinese vehicle was I thought is was reversed engineered. Unlike the PLA's Combat helmet shown here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETP8-8iige0 It is called stealing US intellectual property. It is illegal. America loses billions in dollars and nothing is done. To think we owe the Chinese money is insane. They don't let American goods sell there fairly. Consider Americans admired; because the Chinese and Russians steal from the best. The Chinese defense budget is 24 percent that of the US. Even with the proposed cuts the US will spend more. Over time China's will grow and might overtake. The Russians and Chinese combine our technology with their's and it is a dangerous combination in the making. That is my point. Btw. The suspension system for the Soviet T-34 was designed by Walter Christie. An American. He sold the plans to the Soviets in the 1920's. His idea for a tank had treads and no treads. He got next to nothing for the sale. However, he helped contribute in the making of one of the best tanks in history.

 

[Midget]

You do know that we are in debt to China for trillions, right? We owe China money. We borrowed from them in order to finance the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. If China wanted to ruin us, all they would have to do is end our line of credit. China also has a tendency to copy Russian/old Warsaw pact designs- they've been doing that since the Red Chinese kicked the Nationalists to Taiwan. The Chinese, until recently, had copied every major Russian weapons system. I can't say if they were actually licensed or if they just copied the design.

You are correct that they have unfair trade advantage over American goods, and there is quite a bit of both economic and military espionage going on between the China and the US. However, Chinese spies aren't interested in 4x4s and combat helmets. Those are small fish compared to the higher-end technologies they are interested in.

This is just speculation- but the US companies don't loose money when another country steals their designs. The country that is acquiring that design or information was never going to pay for the contract in the first place. I was surprised the PLA actually licensed the design of their 4x4. Like you, I thought they would have copied a Russian design in the first place.

Also, for the record, it's not just the Russians and Chinese that are guilty of this sort of espionage. Even some of our "allies" have spies looking to get our technology. Jonathan Pollard, convicted of spying for Israel in 1987. He's still in prison.

 

[Midget]

The Russians and Chinese combine our technology with their's and it is a dangerous combination in the making. That is my point.

And, again, I understand that they are doing this, in limited cases. Saying that all their designs are not their own is hyperbole. Again, they have their own R&D sections with billions to invest in their own technology. I wouldn't trust any stats pulled on Chinese military expenditures. There's no way they're going to publish that information.

Btw. The suspension system for the Soviet T-34 was designed by Walter Christie.

On Walter Christie, from Wikipedia:

In 1916, with the First World War raging in Europe, he developed a prototype four-wheeled gun carriage for the US Army Ordnance Board. But the Ordnance board had set out strict guidelines for weapons, and Christie refused to revise his designs to suit their requirements. Christie's own personal stubbornness and his habit of offending those in the US Army and Ordnance bureaucracy would have ramifications for the rest of his career….. Embittered, Christie felt he was justified in selling his inventions to the highest bidder. He began looking to foreign governments to purchase his advanced chassis and suspension systems; Poland, the Soviet Union and Great Britain had all expressed interest in the designs. A long and complex series of exchanges between Christie and various foreign governments soon followed. These were technically illegal, since Christie never obtained approval of the US Department of State, Army Ordnance, or the Department of War to transfer his designs to potentially hostile governments.

I have no sympathy for him for not being compensated for his designs.

 

[rds13601]

We are also China's greatest customer in goods. Where are all the military toys we buy made. Gi Joe, BBi, 21st CenturyI doubt they will end our credit! They need us as much as we need them. They should also be concerned about their flow of oil from the Gulf with this Iran business. Most of their oil comes there. Hmm, funding our US Navy to protect their oil. As for spying, That is a given.Every country does it. Even allies. Was i supposed to be shocked by this?

 

[The Ewokhunter]

You do know that we are in debt to China for trillions, right? We owe China money. We borrowed from them in order to finance the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. If China wanted to ruin us, all they would have to do is end our line of credit.

sorry, but this is very not true:

http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns-us-debt-2011-7?op=1

If they did they, they would just end up ruining themselves as we could pull our companies, put them in other asian and pacific countries and and no longer buy from China manufactured companies which will downward spiral thier economy which is proven fact that WE are their #1 buyer.

 

[Midget]

Oh, I totally agree. At this point we have a symbiotic/parasitic relationship- unfortunately in their favor.

I don't think China would end our credit, but- sometime in the near future, I wouldn't be surprised if they used that as leverage to keep us out of any conflict they might instigate with Taiwan.

 

[Midget]

[/B]

sorry, but this is very not true:

http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns-us-debt-2011-7?op=1

If they did they, they would just end up ruining themselves as we could pull our companies, put them in other asian and pacific countries and and no longer buy from China manufactured companies which will downward spiral thier economy which is proven fact that WE are their #1 buyer.

Interesting stuff. I counter with wikipedia:

The largest holders were the central banks of China, Japan, the United Kingdom and Brazil.[50] The share held by foreign governments has grown over time, rising from 13% of the public debt in 1988[51] to 25% in 2007.[52]
As of May 2011 the largest single holder of U.S. government debt was China, with 26 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities (8% of total US public debt).[53] China's holdings of government debt, as a percentage of all foreign-held government debt, have decreased a bit over the last year, but are up significantly since 2000 (when China held just 6 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities).[54]

In any event, it's muddled depending on who is spinning the statistics. And either way, it's bad for US business.

Disclaimer- I'm not a financial analyst, nor have I ever taken an economic class. So I'm really just spitballing on the economics issue, and parroting what I've read elsewhere.

 

[Midget]

They should be concerned about their flow of oil from the Gulf with this Iran business. Most of their oil comes there. Hmm, funding our US Navy to protect their oil.

They're certainly not going to fund OUR Navy to protect their oil interests in Iran. If anything, they and Russia will use the UN to attempt to mitigate any potential conflict between us and Iran. It's a conflict of their interests for Iran and the US to go to war- it would be their biggest customer vs their oil supply- that's a loose-loose for them.

 

[rds13601]

Well Russia should have thought of that before giving them technology to build nuclear reactors. What did they think was going to happen? As for war get the Saudis to pay for it. They'll love to see the Iran regime out of the way plus the oil rich nations promised to triple production if a war broke out so prices wouldn't hit the roof. Russia, China and the US cannot prevent Israel from attacking those reactors. What Iran does after will be met swiftly and fast by the US. There is no way the Gulf will be closed.

 

[The Ewokhunter]

Interesting stuff. I counter with wikipedia:

You would counter a business journal with professionals with wiki? even I can edit wiki and say China is a poo poo head.

 

[Midget]

Every country does it. Even allies. Was i supposed to be shocked by this?

No, but I just thought I would point it out, as you mentioned US companies losing billions from economic espionage on the part of China and Russia. China and Russia were never going to pay for those contracts in the first place, so there's no loss of money there. Where US companies loose money is when an "ally" of ours steals a design and then produces their own copy. That's when the US company has lost a contract, and lost money.

Also- modifying your posts/updating them is getting hard to follow. It would be much easier if you just make another post to add information. It's kind of annoying having to go back and see what you've added/deleted from past posts.

 

[Midget]

You would counter a business journal with professionals with wiki? even I can edit wiki and say China is a poo poo head.

Yeah, I know. It's usually pretty accurate if you check the references down at the bottom. I'm multitasking right now and don't have time to do the real research

 

[Midget]

Well Russia should have thought of that before giving them technology to build nuclear reactors. What did they think was going to happen? As for war get the Saudis to pay for it. They'll love to see the Iran regime out of the way plus the oil rich nations promised to triple production if a war broke out so prices wouldn't hit the roof.

Russia, and the former states of the USSR saw a chance to make a profit. They're capitalists now . They also have enough oil holdings of their own that any war between Iran/US isn't going to bother them. Although I'm sure having an unstable-nuclear armed state close to their sphere of influence is probably of great concern.

As for the Saudi's- as much as they don't like Iran- they risk the chance of an uprising if their monarchy finances a war with an Islamic country. I know- they're different types of Islam and they hate each other. Fact is, they won't risk their stability to take out Iran. And they can promise anything they want- you don't look at what a government says its going to do, you look at what it actually does.

 

[Midget]

Russia, China and the US cannot prevent Israel from attacking those reactors. What Iran does after will be met swiftly and fast by the US. There is no way the Gulf will be closed.

Yes we can. We hold Israel's purse strings, and most of the kill switches in their IFF modules in their jets. That's how we prevented them from attacking Iraq/getting involved in the first Gulf War- we prevented them from ID'ing US aircraft.

I personally don't care if Israel attacks Iran, however, I don't want to go back to the Middle East again on behalf of Israel. If they attack Iran, I'd rather them do it on their own, without US aid.

Also- again, you modified your post- please, so I don't have to keep going back and double checking you previous posts- just create a new post. It makes all this much easier to follow.

 

[The Ewokhunter]

This scientist bombing over there is definitely the work of Mossad and them trying to pull us into a war they don't want to fight themselves. It could also be the work of Mossad/Iranian double agents to oust ahmadinejad.

 

[Midget]

I definitely agree on both those points Ewok. I just disagree with the world assuming that Israeli foreign policy is that of the US. When it's clearly not- Israel has, and always will, act in it's own self interest. Not ours.

 

[rds13601]

Thanks for the tips on posting Midget! I don't want you go there again either. I will though. Unfornately I'm afraid the dye is cast. According to CBS news, US Navy dolphins were sent to Gulf. There purpose to look for mines. A Kuwait newspaer stated the US fleet is in position for retalitory actions by Iran when Israel carries out Nuclear Site Strike.Though we do control the purse strings; there is however a very big Israeli lobbying machine in Washinton if one is to be elected or hold power and influence in this country.

 

[rds13601]

I also want to thank you for the lively discussion and the sacrifice you have made to this nation so we can enjoy our way of life. Much respect!!! Russ Spencer

 

[Midget]

Thanks for the tips on posting Midget! I don't want you go there again either. I will though. Unfornately I'm afraid the dye is cast.

No problem! It's just soooo much easier to follow and reply.

Yeah, I know it's headed that way and there isn't much to do about it. Still sucks though.

No problem- just some stuff I happen to know a little bit about- not so much the econ stuff though- I skipped that class

No thanks needed. Just giving back is all.

 

[K-Tiger]

The Chinese, until recently, had copied every major Russian weapons system. I can't say if they were actually licensed or if they just copied the design.

They out-and-out stole the Flanker.

But the Russians are just as guilty. The Tu-4 comes to mind.

 

[Midget]

Besides that particular example, were there any other major weapons systems the Russians copied?

 

[rds13601]

The AK 47 reminds me of the WW2 german Mp 44 here to me looks like a rip off of the TOW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSvVXa8ut64

 

[Midget]

The AK 47 was arguably designed off of the German Sturmgewehr 44. At one point Kalishnakov denied pulling design aspects from the StG44 and using it on the AK, but I believe he retracted the statement at some point. They are mechanically similar.

I can't speak to the AT missile- most of those things look similar to me, so I don't think there's an argument to be made unless you have specifics on the guidance and control packages.

 

[K-Tiger]

There's a strong physical resembalance, but the AK operating system is different than the StG. The MiG-23 looks a lot like the F-111, don't it?

The Tu-144 flew before the Concorde, but they're awfully similar.

 

[Midget]

There's a strong physical resembalance, but the AK operating system is different than the StG.

That's why it's arguable. Unless you manage to get Kalishnakov hammered, I don't think you'll get the truth. The only reason I bring it up is because of the similarities in appearance. The last issue of Shotgun News had a very good article on the StG44- good news, there's an American company that's starting to make copies- in more than one caliber. Bad news- more than 4-5k per weapon till they can get manufacturing going.

Again, I'll go with- tools designed to do the same job are going to look similar. An FAL and a G3 look similar, but use very different actions.

 

[rds13601]

I think the Russian Strela or Grail ManPad was a ripoff off of the US Redeye. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-s4u4l5BPo

 

[Midget]

This I can comment on. I did a tour with 2D Low-Altitude Air Defense Battalion a few years ago (Stinger guys)- they're different weapons systems. The concept is the same, but they have noticeable differences in operation. We got a class from the Stinger guess on the history of MANPAD launchers. Interesting stuff though.

 

[rds13601]

Cool!!

 

[rds13601]

Russian Army video. Men at 1:11 seem to be carrying copies of LAWS see for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TuMoU3-jW8&feature=related

 

[K-Tiger]

Russians and Czechs did copy those.

 

[K-Tiger]

That's why it's arguable. Unless you manage to get Kalishnakov hammered, I don't think you'll get the truth. The only reason I bring it up is because of the similarities in appearance. The last issue of Shotgun News had a very good article on the StG44- good news, there's an American company that's starting to make copies- in more than one caliber. Bad news- more than 4-5k per weapon till they can get manufacturing going.

Again, I'll go with- tools designed to do the same job are going to look similar. An FAL and a G3 look similar, but use very different actions.

Meh, 4-5K for a less effective rifle than the AK?

I may have a hard-on for German stuff, but I'm not even remotely interested in a fake StG anywhere near that price bracket. Someone in Europe is already doing WWII German small arms copies.

 

[Midget]

That appears to be a RPG-18 or one of its follow-on designs, which were developed from a bunch of M-72 LAWs the Vietnamese captured during the Vietnam war. So there ya go.